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I didn't realize that purchasing a DVD writer could be this complex.....
whompus
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 9:12 AM
The big thing here is are you going to use the burner for sharing home movies with family and friends. What dvd player will you be using to view backups and home movies on? Will your family and friends also support the same format as yours? I ran into this problem because I chose to go with +r/rw format only to find that some my family and friends players will not support the format.
Therefore my wish for having purchased multi format to Begin with. Now am considering getting a -r/rw to add to my setup to make disks they can support. I still say if you are planing on sharing with family and friends multi format is the best choice.
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321143
Member
12 Apr 2003 9:33 AM
Tally
It really is not that complex. In a age where family members shop for other family members by cell-phone it may seem so. Step back a moment, make a decision on -/+ format, buy it and forever be happy with your decision, no matter what anyone else thinks or says.(besides your spouse ...... LOL :)
ps: whompus I actually had this written at 9:00 before I got pulled away for family matters, thats where the spouse line came in.....hahaha
Good point about multi read drives and maybe a good choice in situations like yours, but doesn't that deal with older and increasingly outdated players.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12 Apr 03 9:34 AM
whompus
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 10:33 AM
Good point about outdated players. It kinda seems though that some manufactures are jumping on the format wars one way or another. For instance I just purchased a combo vcr/dvd player for my grandsons room and come to find out it will not play the -r/rw format. I know some older players from same brand would play both but not the newer version.
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theburner
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 10:39 AM
i have the sony -dr500ax and it works great $349 not much more then any i looked at
Whisperer
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 10:45 AM
Tally
""I didn't realize that purchasing a DVD writer could be this complex.....""
Ya, Essay Test is on Thursday. If you don't get a 70% or better, you loose two activations and may not be eligable for Platinum!
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I think ANY discussion of +or-R is kosher on this thread because it relates to which burner to buy.
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I have had one over-riding rule, for 25 years, for my own purchases and those I've recommended to clients. "Only buy products that adhere to endorsed industry standards of the "Standards Committees." Committees are not profit/market share motivated, they are conviened by an industry charter and funded without an "obligation" other than to study and recommend standards that make the clone world compatible (and tolerable) for the consumers AND to create an even playing ground for manufacturers to compete on a level of technical inovation other than cornering market share. And MS and Sony ARE NOT motivated by those criteria!! It's NOT a STANDARD unless it came from a Committee. Period! Why didnt' Sony & it's gang come out with an R media standard that improves on the -R standard (call it the "-R/Plus" or similar) and is backwards compatible with the first -R standard? When +R came along, after -R, the committee could have upgraded it's endorsement to also include + but rejected it because they saw it's transparent motivations. Sony and it's cross owned and allied affiliates, and OEM manufacturing base are not motivated by consumer benefit or a fair playing ground.
If the industry did adhere 100% to committee standards, then you would not have 36 damn pages of problem posts over on the main 1.5 P&S thead!! And DXC's job would be a lot less stressful too. Go read that thread: 200e this, firmware version e,f,g,h that, AU this, +R that ... on and on.
The Apple world doesn't have this problem; they don't allow clone makers and their customer base is propagandized to not buy any peripheral or software product that is not endorsed by Apple Computer. Talk about the ultimate monopoly! I prefer the freedom of our clone world. Our world is has become the dominant "species" because of our Freedom to make our own choices. But in making choices, it is up to us to make informed, intelligent ones that take motivation into account. Natural selection usually causes the manipulative standards to die out (see my other posts on page1 of this thread). But it takes a few years for them to die off, whereas in the apple world, they never get started.
Sorry if it offends, but -R IS the industry standard.
Best regards
The above standards OPINIONS are those of an unaffiliated Whisperer.
321143
Member
12 Apr 2003 11:11 AM
Whisperer
Would you provide at least one direct link pertaining to your Standards Committees statement and -R only endorsement.
Thanks and keep up the good work around here.
Whisperer
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 11:17 AM
321143
Minutes till I go off to work. How's about you do a google for "DVD Standards Committee", (or CD Standards Committee, Computer Bios SC, or Computer BUS SC, or any standards committees if interested in standards in general).
Best
nickicap
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 11:47 AM
321143
There is NO standard, per se. There ARE standards, established by the respective product vendor committees who decide to go one way or the other. No one comes out and says, "we adopt this (or that) format for computer use." (Standards are simply established so that multiple vendors can manufacture complementary products, players, tapes, media packaging, labeling, etc. in order to alow for a complete product set, not to standardize the industry, as it were. Unlike Apple, in most categories and industries, vendors understand the viability of their product depends on mass acceptance.) The competing format committees then market their format to the masses and either the best propoganda, or the best price or the best glitz wins (OR, the big PC vendor's decison to go one way or the other largely drive the adoption since they end up with the most purchasing clout, however, in many cases those very vendors are members of standards committees so as to help drive their own interests on the subject). (Even on subjects like ATA or SCSI standards, there are approved engineering standards that are adopted by the respective committess, but it still comes down to the manufacturers' of the products, ie drve makers, controller makers and system vendors, to accept and adhere to the standard or specification. That's why there's almost always multiple "standards" in use. The most understandable were the old VHS Beta "standards" Of course they were standards, they had to be, player makers and tape makers ahd to have established standards so they're wares would work in each others devices, otherwise you just have chaos, or the writable DVD market... ;-))
Pioneer essentially drives the -R camp and there is a large contingent of vendors in the +R camp but from my perspective it doesn't appear as motivated to push it's format to the market as Pioneer does. My own view is that they cannot substantiate their claims that +R is more compatible than -R so they are staying under the radar.
As far as what you should buy? I personally think the burner decision is LESS important than the player decision. That said, here's some personal experiences that might be things to consider. I have both a Toshiba SD-R5002 -R burner and a Sony DRU-120A +R burner. The Sony burns at nearly twice the speed of the Toshiba, both using 2x media. Haven't been able to figure out why. It may be a driver issue, may just be inherent to the drives or media. The cost of both media are now approximately the same, in fact, I've noticed impending releases of +R 4x media at a cost far less than both current 2x -R and + R media, so I wouldn't make the decision based on the cost of media being higher one way or the other. There is an opinion that burning at slower speeds aids compatilility. I don't know if that's true or just theory. I DO know that long burn times are very frustrating.
It's interesting to observe that most all system vendors are opting for +R drives (HP/Compaq, Dell, Sony) while aftermarket parts seem dominated by -R with the notable exceptions of Sony, Philips and Acer and some newer players from the media side like Memorex and TDK. The next thing you need to understand is that most consumer products may not actually be manufactured by the name on the bezel. Many +R drives are Ricohs underneath. That said, how do you make a decision amongst the myriad of brands, big, small and totally obscure? That's always the million dollar question. One person's junk is another's treasure. I prefer to stay with (and to recmmend to our clients because we stand behind our recommendations and they are based on experiences with vendor responsiveness and service more than bells and whistles) vendors who will stand behind their product should it fail. Unfortunately, today, there aren't many of those. Others here will attest to the awful support/service of Sony and many other off shore consumer product vendors, however, in some cases you don't have a lot of choice. A LOT of DVD burners are branded by no names, and if they fail, you may be hard pressed to even find out who they were, much less get some satisfaction. My selections would stay within the realm of Sony, Toshiba, Plextor, LG, and perhaps a couple others. I also would buy from a reputable local dealer to ensure I have some recourse for support and service other than the long and winding road of hunting down a far away box peddlar.
In the end having a reliable versatile player is what will make or break your decision on your burner choice (assuming quality and realiability are equal). There are other threads on that topic.
ANY purchase can be as complex OR as simple as you make it. On some items, cheap and/or expensive, I might tend to make an impulse buym, and then on others, both cheap and/or expensive I might sweat out a decision. To each his own. I would just caution against putting too much stock in non-scientific consumer reporting as presented by some of the online resources as well as by consumer mags that derive their revenue from advertisers.
(To the person who seems to think I have an agenda here, I am neither offering to sell NOR would I be interested in selling anything to anyone here. That's not our business model, it doesn't interest me, and my "agenda" here is to help those requesting it. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, your mouse has clicks left in it...)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12 Apr 03 12:41 PM
Whisperer
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 1:25 PM
nickicap
I love ya babe but you are dead wrong. Industry standards ARE decided by their respective Committees. Sony had reps at the committee meetings. They didn't get the decision they wanted regarding the direction of their, still in developement, product line. Their product "theory " was considered and turned down so they struck out on their own as in their past history.
You are speaking of "Defacto Standards". If no standards committe has been conviened to study and recommend a standard then a certain company's manufacturing method can be adopted by other manufacturers (usually involving royalties to be paid).
This is not the case in our little dvd burning world. THE DVD Standards Committee has defined an Industry Standard. It is NOT a defacto standard.
That was sure a good read nickicap! I'm at work and couldn't read every single word, so if I responded wrong to certain points or missed any good points, I'll try to catch up with a detailed read this evening. Thanks and sorry be to standing at the other podium on this subject.
Best regards
Jaybo
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 1:38 PM
nickicap,
Mouse has clicks left in it?
Can you remove the checkmark at the bottom left so you won't get any email notifications?(You know just above the REPLY?)
tommyx
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 1:54 PM
After a lot of deliberating I decided to get a new burner, A Panasonic/Matshita SW-9581.
Similar to my last burner(Panasonic/Matshita LF-D311) this one can burn to DVD-R and DVD-RAM, unlike my old one the new one can burn to DVD-RW, CDR-R/RW and at 2X not 1X.
It is only 2X, but it will burn a lot of 1X media at 2X and 2X media is a lot cheaper than 4X anyway. Why did I decide to buy this, well for several.
Firstly it was cheap, £150 approx $225 bundled with 25 2X DVD-R's.
Secondly DVD-RAM is ideal for dragging and dropping files etc in real time for backing up, no need to use burning software for this.
Thirdly having had a Panasonic already, I knew what results to expect.
Why DVD-R, well possibly because it will be the industry standard, or set top players seem to like them better according to some here, mainly cos they're cheaper than DVD+R.
I was waiting for the new Liteon, but this was an offer I couldn't pass up.
tommy X
Jaybo
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 2:36 PM
tommyx,
Is this the unit you boasted about on another thread? (or was it Floyd?)
Congrats to you,and I hope you have many years of use with your choice.
Good Luck,
Jaybo
mysterio
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 2:38 PM
Even Sony's new blueray burner which is already out(costs like $3K) supports only(reads and burns) - media, what does that tell you the company that makes a hybrid burner (dru500) for their next generation burners supports only the - format.
321143
Member
12 Apr 2003 2:40 PM
tommyx
With all do respect to your influence to the forum..... but why?
+RW already has drag & drop, why "o" why go out and buy three different media to do the same as +R(RW). Does DVD-Ram media even have a viable future two years from now?
Again with respect to your choice, but IMHO fail to see any current logic.
Good luck with your drive.
Best regards
nickicap
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 3:25 PM
Whisperer
Seriously, it's okay to disagree! If there is a formal committee tasked with determining what DVD format will be ultimately be thrust on us (at the exclusion of the other), it's news to me and I'd like to read up on it. I'd also say, without that in hand, that I'd wager money it's doomed to fail, ie- will prove powerless. The term de facto standard actually should have ben very prominent in my post as virtually all consumer electronics "standards" (read- winners) are de facto selections as determined by the consuming public, ala VHS. The committees I was speaking of really are specification committees more than standards committees.
If you can aim me at some public info regarding a DVD standards committee with this kind of task, I'm mighty curious.
nickicap
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 3:29 PM
One last comment... If I were to recommend a model of burner, with no cost consideration, it'd probably be a Sony DRU-500AX. The point about player selection being more important also assumes you don't have one. If you DO, then I'd match burner media type to the preferred media of your player. The Sony combo provides a good balance, although is rather pricey. I'm also not sure of the effect of 4x burning on compatibility, something many of you who own that drive and the 500A can comment on. The other side is the ongoing discussion of players, and there too I'd recommend any Sony the has xxx15xxx in the model number as there is a very large preponderence of evidence that they are VERY compatible to both formats.
(Lest someone go off on the agenda tangent again, I don't sell Sony products... AND I don't like the Sony company very much; these are VERY subjective recommendations. I own all Toshiba stuff, for the most part, other than my Sony DRU-120A burner.)
stollery
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 4:33 PM
I was going to sit this latest issue one out and simply read each new post and digest everything folks have been saying with total objectiveity. Until nickicap's "If you DO, then I'd match burner media type to the preferred media of your player", comment that is. I think he's really nailed the essence of what we should be looking for. In my case, I believe that's why, since I'm normally buying the latest and greatest every time I turn around, I've decided "not" to trade in my HP200i. Simply put - it consistently backs up all my DVDs to the extent that they always play back in each one of my 4 DVD players without so much as a hiccup. I've got a good thing going here and I'm not going to mess with it.
However, insofar as his claim of not being a saleman, look a little closer. He's wanting to dump his Toshiba SD4800 so badly it's tearing him up inside. Okay, I give in. I'll take the damn thing off your hands. Send it to me, with $50 worth of green stamps, and it'll be mine forever.
Whisperer
Senior Member
12 Apr 2003 5:08 PM
nickicap
Having network probs here at Saturn today. No time to get to forum often. Dont have web addresses in my pocket but just do a google search for "DVD Standards Committee". Also interesting is to do a search for just "Standards Committee" and all different kinds standards come up in electronics, home entertainment, etc etc. B.T.W.: there WAS an official Standards Committee that led to the decision to standardize the VCR industry on VHS instead of Betamax which was the reason why video rental stores all went VHS in the 80's
Best regards
nickicap
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 5:52 PM
stollery
You're nuts! Too much Blue Crush! You need some Orange Crush to dilute it! I have actually taken to the SD-4800 since I put the Toshiba burner in.
Careful with the sarcasm, I'm getting lambasted by another poster at the moment. He might take your humor as allied attack on me... ;-)
BTW, I can get you a good deal on another 4800 if you want one... ;-)
nickicap
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 5:58 PM
Whisperer
I have searched for DVD Standards Committee and many variances. I've seen remnants, old docs about stuff from '96 and '00, but no evidence of who, what or where. I know there's an Advanced Television Standards Committee and I'm sure either that one or one like it came up with the Region coding and stuff...
stollery
Inactive
12 Apr 2003 6:01 PM
nickicap - Ah, now I can't pry that thing away from you with a more than generous offer. I told you that the 4700/4800 were sweet machines. Really glad you were able to keep it. The 4700 is my fav of the 4 I use.
Sarcasm? Better not post this forum and be thinskinned. I LOVE THIS STUFF!
g8torb8t,
the pioneer at esbuy, is it a plus and minus burner like sony ? i could not tell. but for the price it looks tempting.by the way cool screen name.
thanks jim
It is already over 90 days since last post to this thread, you're not allowed to post here anymore.
