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Afterdawn's, AfterDawn Addict, Senior Member, Members,, Junior Member, Newbie B/S Any Thing Go's Thread

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arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 12:03 PM
I bought my Xcopy Gold over three years ago and it worked well, I never had a quarrel with the quality it pumped out, in fact still have many of those backups and still play them. Although I am slowly replacing them with new backups because of the nag screen. My problem is the price they charge, you can purchase AnyDVD and CloneDVD for less than half of what Xcopy wants. Slysoft updates but Xcopy does not. Many people will use a program if they like it even if they have to use a helper program with it, but it should be priced accordingly. Also, the online activation is a poo, after so many activations you are dead.
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 12:10 PM
arniebear
read my back post again,i added more...gold was crap when they put it out..it was only a money maker for 321 studio.all gold was xpress 321 and dvdxcopy.152
arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 12:16 PM
I read the post about the bouducon.dll I will see if I can somehow get hold of Platinum v.4 and try this out.
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 12:20 PM
arniebear
i have ye e-mail address i will send ye the 40415rf bouducon.dll to you.
arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 12:22 PM
I will PM you, thanks much :)
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 12:23 PM
i sent it to ye with the address ye gave me b-4..
arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 12:25 PM
thanks again, that is the correct one, lol I just PM'd that one.
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 12:55 PM
gear this drink is waiting for ye when ye come back.
mackdl 
Senior Member

5 Feb 2006 1:54 PM
@Lethal_B

I bought 4038, NEVER used it, only 4015 RF.

Okay, I did use "Rescue" on some of my dvds, EGADS "That 321 Splash Screen"!!! I hated it.

As for V5, if the purchase price was in line with other software, I would consider it. Also there should be a trial period, which there isn't.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5 Feb 06 2:14 PM

ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 4:19 PM
to those that put out XCopy9 SE it needs a lot of work to be in prime time.

ye did ask me to beta test it,right and ye never got back to me...
thanks
i got my own copy to test..i say take it back to the drawning board and try again.
cheers
arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 4:24 PM
Is that Xcopy9 the same program that is available retail? Because I have a retail version of this program from CompUSA that someone gave me, it stinks.
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 4:40 PM
arniebear

yes its the one,a couple of x 321 studio guys got together to write it...

i am glad i tested it on a back up drive...

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5 Feb 06 4:41 PM

arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

5 Feb 2006 4:43 PM
Well they missed on this program, the quality is horrible.
ireland 
Inactive

5 Feb 2006 10:20 PM
STEELERS WON
21 TO 10

Steelers Win Fifth Super Bowl Title
1 minute ago

DETROIT - The
Pittsburgh Steelers finally gave coach Bill Cowher some Super Bowl satisfaction. Moments after the Rolling Stones rocked a Ford Field filled with Terrible Towels, Willie Parker broke a record 75-yard touchdown run, sparking Pittsburgh's 21-10 victory Sunday over the
Seattle Seahawks.
ADVERTISEMENT

Not only did the Steelers earn that elusive fifth championship ring and their first since 1980, but they completed a magic Bus ride that made Jerome Bettis' homecoming — and likely farewell — a success.

And they provided sweet validation for Cowher with a title in his 14th season as their coach, the longest tenure in the NFL.

As a sixth seed, no less.

Maybe their inspiration came when Mick Jagger sang a rousing rendition of "Satisfaction" at halftime.

They certainly got plenty of help from the Seahawks, too. Seattle was plagued by penalties, drops, poor clock management and a critical fourth-quarter interception of Matt Hasselbeck just when the NFC champions seemed ready to take the lead.

Instead, Pittsburgh (15-5) got the clinching score with the kind of trickery that has carried it through an eight-game winning streak.

Versatile wide receiver Antwaan Randle El, a quarterback in college, took a handoff from Parker, sprinted right and threw perfectly to Hines Ward for a 43-yard TD with 9:04 remaining.

Bettis' role was minimal in what might be the final game for the NFL's No. 5 career rusher.

So was quarterback Ben Roethlisberger's impact — the most noteworthy play for the youngest quarterback to win a Super Bowl was a horrid pass that Kelly Herndon of the Seahawks (15-4) returned a record 76 yards.

That set up the Seahawks' only touchdown, a 16-yard pass to Jerramy Stevens — Joey Porter, his verbal sparring partner all week, was nowhere in sight.

But with Parker's burst and Seattle's self-destructive tendencies, the Steelers completed their postseason march through the league's top four teams.

arniebear 
AfterDawn Addict

6 Feb 2006 7:12 AM
My congrats to the Steelers, I cheered for them. As a (sob) Browns fan the Steelers are my dream team. The Steelers play tough hard ball, and no one deserved it more.
whompus 
Senior Member

6 Feb 2006 4:06 PM
Nero 7.0.5.4 was released today. The firs couple added features I see in it are for ipod video in recode.
OXXXX{>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<}XXXXO
ireland 
Inactive

6 Feb 2006 7:54 PM





Patti Santangelo's new lawyer

p2p news / p2pnet: Patti Santangelo now has a team. Its members are Patti herself, her new lawyer, Jordan Glass and you.

And you guys are taking on Warner Music, Vivendi Universal, EMI and Sony BMG, the desperate Big Four Organized Music Goliaths.

They don't stand a chance.

Glass who, bottom line, quite literally wouldn't be beside Patti without help from p2pnet readers, was officially accepted into the New York court system last week and, he told me, he guarantees he'll stay on the case to the end.

"I have to thank all of the p2pnet readers who've contributed to the Fight Goliath Campaign," Patti said today. "Their donations so far have enabled me to hire a new attorney, Jordan D. Glass.

"I wanted very much to continue this fight on my own but when I sat down with the pile of paperwork, I realized that without an attorney who understood the discovery process, I'd surely lose."

Glass is a one-man band in a private practice firm. We'll tell you more about him shortly and we'll also give you details of how the money you're donating is being spent, together with estimates of up-coming outlays.

In two other important developments, we now have a private New York PO Box address for snail-mail contributions, and all donations are going into an escrow account administered by Patti herself.

And while the RIAA is targetting Santangelo and people like her, on November 15, 2004, in testimony before the Federal Trade Commission, the RIAA openly admitted tmost P2P end users don't even know their files are in a shared files folder, says Recording Industry vs The People.

"As an initial matter, P2P software may, upon installation, automatically search a user’s entire hard drive for content," states P2P File-Sharing Workshop – Comment, P034517 - Comments of The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), November 15, 2004, going oin:

"Files that users have no intention of sharing may end up being offered to the entire P2P network. Continued sharing of personal information is hard to avoid and is facilitated by confusing and complicated instructions for designating shared items. A study by Nathaniel S. Good and Aaron Krekelberg at HP Laboratories showed that “the majority of the users…were unable to tell what files they were sharing, and sometimes incorrectly assumed they were not sharing any files when in fact they were sharing all files on their hard drive."

So far ....
... 558 p2pnet readers have contributed a total of $7,588.27. And there were two single snail-mail donations to the old snail-mail address - one of $40, and one of $50.

The total of $7,678.27 looks like a lot, but it isn't. It allowed Patti to retain Glass, but much more will be needed for the discovery process, which has to be completed by May 5. How much more? We're working on an estimate, but for now, it'll be anything upwards of $100,000.

If you're having doubts about the money, check out Alex H's thoughts on the matter.

And if you're wondering if it's all dollars down the tubes, I, the 558 current donors, Jason Rohrer, who wrote the donations script and set up the central donations tracking page, Jordan Glass, Patti and her kids clearly don't think so.

As Alex H sums it up, he's imagining himself standing in the Valley of Elah, "holding a betting slip with 'David - 100 Shakels To Win' written on it."

We are too and when Patti wins, shattering the Bkig Four's delusions that we depend on them, instead of the other way around, it's going to make a huge difference to the more than 18,000 people already being pilloried by the Big Four, not to mention people yet to be victimized.

You can make an immediate contribution to the Goliath Fund by clicking the PayPal button under the pic. Or you can send it to Patti by snail-mail, address beneath it.

Patti Santangelo
C/O PO Box 57
Cedarhurst
New York 11516, USA

If you're a web site owner and you want to post a donations button, go here for the code. You'll find a list of sites featuring donatioins buttons, and some p2pnet story links in the struggle.

For now, go here to see what's in so far.

Cheers, and thanks. And all the best…

420 million vs almost three billion
For anyone who's not familiar with the case, Patti, a New York mother of five, is the first of the more than 18,000 people - men, women and even young children - so far victimized by the Big Four's RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America).

Through a vast international PR and propaganda blitz involving the mainstream media and scores of 'trade' organizations, the labels, worth billions of dollars, are trying to claim they're being "devastated" by people who share files on the p2p networks. The RIAA sue 'em all campaign is the American element.

Santangelo was distributing copyrighted songs online, says the RIAA. It's unlikely it'll get far with that so the next targets will, inevitably, be Patti's children. They are Michelle, 19 (wht Patti, left), Bobby, 15, and Ryan, 7 (centre) and Nicole (17) and Jack, 10 (bottom left), all of whom live at home.

Behind specious claims of a thriving corporate music download market, RIAA spokesmen Mitch 'The Don' Bainwol and Cary 'Scary' Sherman' claim their lawsuits are driving significant numbers people to the tiny handful of sites they service and supply, although the reverse is true.

In its latest report, the Big Four's IFPI (International Federation of the Phonographic Industries) boasts, "Music fans downloaded 420 million single tracks from the internet last year". And, "legitimate digital music business is steadily pushing back on digital piracy," declared Kennedy, contradicting his and other statements that "Illegal activity on peer-to-peer networks has stayed static in the last year". Meanwhile in the real world of online music, 60 million Americans had logged on a year ago, says the Digital Media Project, and, say statistics from p2p research company BigChampagne, the numbers are steadily increasing year by year.

During September, 2005, the average number of files available on p2p networks for download at any moment (average simultaneous files) was 2,789,154,393, BigChampagne told me. Spelled out, that's almost three billionfiles.

In America in December, 2005, on average, 6,978,715 people were simultaneously logged onto the p2p networks at any given time, says p2p research firm BigChampagne, which produces statistics centering on the file sharing phenomenon.

In 2004, the number was 5,500,314 and in 2003, 3,239,298, says the firm, which compiled statistics for the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development Information Technology Outlook report for 2004.

Globally, in December, 2003, 5,602,384 people were logged onto the p2p nets at the same time at any point around the clock, in 2004 the number had swelled to 7,582,248 and in December, 2005, it was 9,554,298.

But neither the Big Four Organized Music cartel members, Warner Music, Vivendi Universal, EMI and Sony BMG, nor their shareholders, are benefitting from this huge Net music phenomenon. They're still locked in the last century with outmoded physical business models and, "Many in the music industry grumble that downloading has been their downfall, and the business has aggressively tried to stop illegal file sharing," says AP.

The Big Four spare no expense in their bitter war against the 'consumers' whom, they claim, are thieves and criminals who "illegally" download music without paying for it.

This isn't, however, a criminal matter, efforts by the cartel's RIAA to elevate it to that level notwithstanding. It's a civil one. And what's at issue isn't if someone's broken a law it's whether or not he or she has infringed a copyright, which is a very long way from "criminal" or "illegal".

At the beginning of the case, Patti was a client of prestigious New York lawyers Beldock, Levine & Hoffman. However, a single mother, she couldn't afford the fees and she and B, L & H decided the only way she could continue was to become her own lawyer.

Now, spread the word. Blog, post, use IM, emails, ICR, whatever. Contact your local tv / radio station / newspaper. Can you get something on slashdot? Can you get the Fight Goliath campaign on Digg or anywhere else? And it doesn't matter where in the world you are. The results of the Patti case will affect you as well. That's why sites from countries such as Italy and the UK feature donation buttons.

Cheers! And thanks. And all the best ...

See:

Mother of 5 takes on Big Music - p2pnet Q&A with lawyer Ray Beckerman, August 28, 2005
RIAA victim talks to p2pnet - p2pnet Q&A with Patti Santangelo, September 4, 2005
The 'We're Not Taking Any More' club - Patti isn't the only who's who's had enough, September 17, 2005
Wanted: p2p tech experts - Santangelo's lawyers aren't impressed by RIAA 'evidence,' October 24, 2005
RIAA mass lawsuits 'improper' - Beckerman believes the RIAA oversteps the mark with mass subpoenas, November 21, 2005
1st RIAA trial: victim to defend herself - First news that Santangelo is on her own, December 6, 2005
Teens next RIAA victims - Just before Christmas, the Big Four decide Patti's children might also make targets, December 23, 2005
Santangelo picks up steam - Forced to acknowledge the saga, the mainstream media finally pick it up, December 28, 2005
Tech expert hacks at RIAA evidence - Zi Mei sets out to debunk RIAA 'technical' evidence, December 29, 2005
Patti Santangelo fights Goliath: II - Patti says, 'Thanks for the support,' December 17, 2005
Patti Santangelo campaign launch! - It's the last day of 2005 and the Fight Goliath campaign officially goes up, December 31, 2005
Sceptical about Patti Santangelo? - p2pnet columnist Alex H has a few thoughts for doubters, January 8, 2006

Donate sites:

* http://jasonrohrer.n3.net $2324.82
* http://p2pnet.net $1759.35
* http://boingboing.net $1149.48
* http://www.fightgoliath.org $879.03
* http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com $329.78
* http://www.downhillbattle.org $328.84
* http://www.p2pforum.it $135.26
* http://boycott-riaa.com $114.12
* http://www.p2pjihad.org/ $79.69
* http://virtualturntable.fourstones.net $72.22
* http://www.bl0g.co.uk/ $47.75
* http://www.azoz.com $42.79
* http://www.bizzarscripts.com $33.68
* http://psx00.com $30.84
* http://www.yourmercifulgod.co.uk/ $28.89
* http://theangrywoodchuck.blogspot.com/ $24.04
* http://www.swissreporter.ch $21.49
* http://psg.com/ $19.12
* http://www.boycott-riaa.com $19.12
* http://www.tomb-of-nil.com $19.12
* http://www.pod2peer.blogspot.com/ $18.92
* http://www.livejournal.com/users/obscure411 $14.45
* http://blog.andrlik.org $14.26
* http://www.annabet.com $14.11
* http://www.peteyp.com $9.60
* http://http://www.myspace.com/brizmo $9.41
* http://www.quiglag.com $9.41
* http://www.xnlb.com/ $5.65
* http://www.soundnet.co.uk/ $4.50
* http://bandnet.org/ $4.13
* http://www.pdmedia.org $2.61
* http://www.timcormier.com $2.31
* http://scattermall.com $0.67

(Monday 6th February 2006)
http://p2pnet.net/story/7839




WHEN ARE YE GUYS GOING TO GET IT IN YE HEADS,(Patti Santangelo's } IS FIGHTING FOR YOU.
And ye guys will be next and soon ye guys will be taking on Warner Music, Vivendi Universal, EMI and Sony BMG, the desperate Big Four Organized Music Goliaths. as a knock on ye door or per telephone call.


THIS IS TO IMFORM ALL OF YOU,IF (Patti Santangelo's } LOOSES HER CASE YE MUSIC AND MOVIE DOWNLOADERS WILL BE NEXT TO BE SUED AS SOON AS THEY GET YE IP OR E-MAIL ADDRESS.

if ye can send her some money to help her to fight for you...

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6 Feb 06 7:56 PM

ireland 
Inactive

10 Feb 2006 8:25 PM
THIS ONE I SURE AS HELL WOULD READ !!!!~!~!~!~



Settec protection on German video DVD impairs CD/DVD writers
Posted by Dan Bell on 10 February 2006 - 20:53 - Source: Heise



RTV71 used our news submit to tell us "I guess these characters can"t learn by example." Here's some further details of the actions that can be expected if you are unlucky enough to put a Settec Alpha-DVD protected movie DVD in your PC.

This copy protection is known as Alpha-DVD. The main application receives a different name on every install, using inconspicuous names such as "win32k2.exe" and "msxhtml.exe". Its file properties characterize it as a "System PTHelper". The executable launches as a cloaked process which Process Explorer. The copy protection also loads a DLL file into memory (hadl.dll), which becomes a child process of all running executables. In the system registry, Alpha-DVD sets itself up as "SystemManager" and armors this entry in such a way that it is restored on every reboot.

With the prompting of hadl.dll, all applications begin to query the OS for ASPI and ASAPI drivers as well as a DLL supplied with various products by Slysoft, a company specializing in DVD copying and "ripping" tools. According to Kinowelt, the German distributor of the copy-protected DVD, the purpose of these sweeps is to hinder the duplication of the DVD. It's supposed to become active only when the protected DVD is found in one of the optical drives. If the protected title is located, Alpha-DVD is meant to block the execution of common ripping tools.

However, in web forums German users soon complained about irregularities. Several of them reported that after inserting the copy-protected disc, CD/DVD writing applications could no longer locate optical and virtual disk drives removed from the OS. Neither of these claims could be verified as of yet. However, c't magazine found that Alpha-DVD would not stop polling for drivers if the protected disc was removed from the drive. Even worse, the continuous sweeps seemed to have a negative impact on CD/DVD burning in general.

On two different test machines, the DVD writer kept speeding up and slowing down during the burning process. In instance, this resulted in a destroyed DVD-RW medium. The copy-protected disc was not time. c't can not confirm whether the application actually blocks DVD ripping tools since the use of copy circumvention devices is prohibited under German copyright law.

Well here we go again! More malware for the end user that thought they were just buying a movie. It's bad enough to have to put up with copy protections, but when they become this intrusive it seems that something needs to be done about it. In order to read the English article in it's entirety from the source, just visit this link at Heise. In the meantime, just say "no" to autoplay in Windows.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/13052



THE MAIN ARTICLE

Copy Protection on German Video DVD Impairs CD/DVD Writers

When customers insert the German Video-DVD of the movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith" into their Windows PC, they are presented with an EULA (End User License Agreement) which explains that the disc is copy-protected. If they do not accept the EULA, the drive ejects the disk. If they click on "I agree", the DVD installs three files into the Windows system directory (system32).
Anzeige

This copy protection is known as Alpha-DVD. The main application receives a different name on every install, using inconspicuous names such as "win32k2.exe" and "msxhtml.exe". Its file properties characterize it as a "System PTHelper". The executable launches as a cloaked process which Process Explorer. The copy protection also loads a DLL file into memory (hadl.dll), which becomes a child process of all running executables. In the system registry, Alpha-DVD sets itself up as "SystemManager" and armors this entry in such a way that it is restored on every reboot.

With the prompting of hadl.dll, all applications begin to query the OS for ASPI and ASAPI drivers as well as a DLL supplied with various products by Slysoft, a company specializing in DVD copying and "ripping" tools. According to Kinowelt, the German distributor of the copy-protected DVD, the purpose of these sweeps is to hinder the duplication of the DVD. It's supposed to become active only when the protected DVD is found in one of the optical drives. If the protected title is located, Alpha-DVD is meant to block the execution of common ripping tools.

However, in web forums German users soon complained about irregularities. Several of them reported that after inserting the copy-protected disc, CD/DVD writing applications could no longer locate optical and virtual disk drives removed from the OS. Neither of these claims could be verified as of yet. However, c't magazine found that Alpha-DVD would not stop polling for drivers if the protected disc was removed from the drive. Even worse, the continuous sweeps seemed to have a negative impact on CD/DVD burning in general.

On two different test machines, the DVD writer kept speeding up and slowing down during the burning process. In instance, this resulted in a destroyed DVD-RW medium. The copy-protected disc was not time. c't can not confirm whether the application actually blocks DVD ripping tools since the use of copy circumvention devices is prohibited under German copyright law.

It is, of course, possible to prevent the installation of the copy protection by disabling the DVD drive's "autostart" feature or keeping the shift key pressed after inserting the disc. This enables playback on computers, but does not permit copying of the disc, since it is protected the Content Scrambling System (CSS) and "bad sectors". The Media Center Edition of Windows XP is usually not affected by Alpha-DVD, because the media center application ignores DVD-ROM autostart applications on Video DVDs.

The Alpha-DVD copy protection is manufactured by the Korean companySettec. A former unit of LG Electronics, claims its technology "has been classified as one of the most reliable copy protection solutions". The EULA of the installer goes so far as to claim that the copy protection has been "examined and declared safe by the manufacturers of the approved systems", the systems listed being "Windows 98, 98 SE, ME, 2000, XP, 2003". This statement could not yet be verified with Microsoft.

For several weeks, Settec offered an uninstaller which could only be downloaded after entering a valid e-mail address. In return, the manufacturer would issue a 32-digit "authorization keycode" and a download link. On February 7, Settec replaced the uninstaller with a variant which does not require e-mail registration. However, both versions of the uninstaller insisted on a direct Internet connection to function. If Internet access was blocked by a firewall or a proxy server, the uninstall process failed. Due to the stealth measures mentioned above, a manual uninstall is rather difficult. Apparently in response to customer complaints, Settec is now offering a new uninstaller which removes the copy protection with no questions asked. This third iteration of the installer does no longer require an e-mail address or an internet connection.

Currently, only a few titles are affected by Alpha-DVD 1.0.3.5: the German versions of the romantic action movie "Mr. & Mrs. Smith" and the lesser-known police thriller "Edison", both issued by Kinowelt. According to the German distributor, 50,000 copies have been sold of the Edison DVD since its release in Mid-December 2005. The DVD for Mr. & Mrs. Smith was released on February 7, following a two-week "rental-only" period. An earlier version of the copy protection appears on the Korean DVD "Old Boy - Final Edition". It is currently unknown what other titles may be affected.

Asked whether they would continue to use Alpha-DVD on their titles, German video distributor Kinowelt stated that they will continue to evaluate the copy protection market and decide based on their observations. (ghi/c't)
http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/69361
meridium 
Newbie

1 Mar 2006 1:02 PM
i am a 55year old electronics technician. i have been reading various parts of after dawn for about a year now. i am of course interested in dvd software etc. i am totally confused as to what the current status is for home copying. please read again i am not interested in the corrupt opinions or legal standpoints of so called governments. i would just like to get down to the facts of the issue. is there currently software that can copy dvd material so i can have personal backups? i really have had enough of reading all the bs on this and many other sites. can any reasonable inteligent person give me a brief and accurate answer to my question? i read this particular thread and all its ramblings (and i do appreciate the social interaction going on) and when i get to the bottom of the page here is a link to go and buy dvd xcopy. please put me out of my misery (re my question that is). my email address is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just in case the so called law prohibits this information (any replies) from appearing on this site. thanks in anticipation.

please no e-mail address are allowed to be posted.

go here to ask that question
http://forums.afterdawn.com/forum_view.cfm/44
ireland

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1 Mar 06 1:17 PM

ireland 
Inactive

1 Mar 2006 1:20 PM
as above bottom of ye post.
cheers
andmerr 
Inactive

20 Mar 2006 1:30 PM
nice threead you have ireland., i laughed when i saw it
ireland 
Inactive

20 Mar 2006 3:30 PM
andmerr
WELCOME TO DVDXCOPY FORUM..

THANKS FOR POSTING HERE..

P/S ON THIS THREAD YE CAN USE UPPER OR LOWER CASE TEXT..THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO HAVE FUN,WITH OUT ANY ONE WATCHING OVER YE..
andmerr 
Inactive

21 Mar 2006 3:33 AM
no probs MAN, WOULDNT WANT TO GET DONE FOR shouting
gurnard 
Senior Member

21 Mar 2006 10:39 AM
SHOUTING! WHOSE SHOUTING?
THis DaMNed heaRIng aID iS ON THe blinK AgAin
ireland 
Inactive

22 Mar 2006 8:57 AM
ALL THAT WANTED TO KNOW WHAT CREAKY LOOKS LIKE AND WHAT HE DOES IN HIS SPAIR TIME,WHEN HES NOT MOD-ING HERE AT AFTERDAWN,

It is already over 90 days since last post to this thread, you're not allowed to post here anymore.
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